Episode 3
The Arc of Justice
Leigh Anne McKingsley, senior director at The Arc's National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability, talks with Janet Stewart, Impact's managing editor, about intersectional issues involving people with disabilities in the criminal justice system.
Editor's note: This conversation includes language describing an act of police violence that could be distressing for some readers.
Transcript
- Welcome to Impact the
Conversation, a podcast
Speaker:of the University of Minnesota's
Institute on community
Speaker:integration that brings you strategies
Speaker:and stories advancing
the inclusion of people
Speaker:with disabilities.
Speaker:Our guests are the authors of Impact,
Speaker:our long running magazine
that bridges the research
Speaker:to practice gap with professional
Speaker:and personal reflections on
Speaker:what matters most in
disability equity today.
Speaker:I'm your host, Janet Stewart. It.
Speaker:- Hi, I'm Lee Ann Mc Kingsley.
Speaker:I work for the Arts National
Center on Criminal Justice
Speaker:and Disability,
Speaker:and the Center has been around
for 10 years now focused on
Speaker:addressing the issues that
people with intellectual
Speaker:and developmental disabilities
are facing when it comes
Speaker:to their involvement in the
criminal justice system.
Speaker:- I'm just really excited
for today's episode
Speaker:because you have really spent
your entire career in the
Speaker:disability justice field,
Speaker:and it's just really exciting
to have you here today.
Speaker:So just to kind of get
started, your article
Speaker:for the Justice issue goes into
Speaker:how the National Center got started,
Speaker:but can you briefly talk about its history
Speaker:and how it, how you came
to, to be part of it
Speaker:- All?
Speaker:Absolutely. And thank
you for that question
Speaker:because I, I liked hearing histories of
Speaker:how things got started
and the why behind it.
Speaker:And I actually came to
the ARC when I was 24
Speaker:because the a DA had
passed four years earlier
Speaker:and the a DA of course was
looking at how do we make sure
Speaker:that people with disabilities
have accommodations when it
Speaker:comes to criminal justice
issues Under Title two
Speaker:of the A DA, it
specifically looks at state
Speaker:and local governments and are
they providing accommodations?
Speaker:Well, the ARC was looking
to educate folks about
Speaker:that very issue,
Speaker:and so they received a
grant through the Department
Speaker:of Justice to create materials
Speaker:for law enforcement attorneys, people
Speaker:with intellectual
developmental disabilities
Speaker:about this topic.
Speaker:And I applied for that
Speaker:and was hired to do that work
Speaker:and immediately realized
Speaker:how little people knew
about this population
Speaker:and about this intersection.
Speaker:And I had learned of the
work of Bob Persky, who
Speaker:some of your listeners may know
Speaker:because of his history in the field
Speaker:of writing books about the topic of people
Speaker:who were executed facing Death row
Speaker:who had intellectual
developmental disabilities.
Speaker:And he was really my mentor at the very
Speaker:beginning and throughout.
Speaker:And so that set the
stage for really wanting
Speaker:to explore this work,
provide advocacy, working
Speaker:with our state and local chapters
Speaker:and how we could do that effectively.
Speaker:And then it was only 10
years ago that we were able
Speaker:to get funding through
the Department of Justice
Speaker:to create the National
Center on Criminal Justice
Speaker:and Disability housed within the arc.
Speaker:So that was really a
dream kind of come true
Speaker:that finally we could get enough funding
Speaker:and support to look at this issue very
Speaker:specifically.
Speaker:Typically, the funding
doesn't come that way.
Speaker:There hasn't been a lot of
funding in this area, so we're
Speaker:so grateful just for the
opportunity to focus in on this.
Speaker:And so it's been a long,
kind of a long journey
Speaker:going in that direction.
Speaker:- I really wanted to ask you about that
Speaker:because you know, how
maddening was it, you know,
Speaker:as someone who's passionate
about the, about the law,
Speaker:about disability advocacy, we
have these laws on the books
Speaker:for a reason, you know,
Speaker:and it, it just takes so long
Speaker:to get practical initiatives going.
Speaker:How frustrating has that been for you?
Speaker:- Pretty frustrating,
Speaker:but also since my work
Speaker:or my initial education was in social work
Speaker:and then working
Speaker:to understand long range
goals, understanding
Speaker:that even policy in itself
doesn't happen overnight.
Speaker:I kind of had to take that in stride
Speaker:and did a lot of different
things at the ARC over the years
Speaker:before I started seeing fruit.
Speaker:And, and really what kept
me going was the stories
Speaker:as a person who survived quite a few,
Speaker:few things myself in my own
life, when I would hear stories
Speaker:of people whether
Speaker:or not we had the funding,
it lights the fire in you
Speaker:to keep on it no matter what.
Speaker:And so that is really kind of
what sustained me throughout,
Speaker:throughout this journey.
Speaker:And the more that I've talked
to other people about this,
Speaker:it's kind of like we create
our own, our own little world
Speaker:of advocacy
Speaker:and you see min new people
coming to, into the cause
Speaker:and that's been really
the most exciting part.
Speaker:- Was there one case
in particular early on
Speaker:that really, really you
thought, wow, this is,
Speaker:this is really powerful
work that we're doing
Speaker:- That early on when I
first came to the arc,
Speaker:that first year,
Speaker:I worked on a death penalty
case here in Texas where I live.
Speaker:And, and I remember there
was six different people
Speaker:involved in this case where
someone had been murdered.
Speaker:And out of all of those individuals,
Speaker:everyone pointed the finger
to one person, the one person
Speaker:that had intellectual disabilities.
Speaker:And we brought in experts,
you know, we flew in experts
Speaker:to explain to the jury
what the situation was and,
Speaker:and I was just sure that they
would understand, you know,
Speaker:knowing what I knew working at the arc.
Speaker:And it did not make one difference.
Speaker:In fact, because the crime was
so serious, I think it just
Speaker:did not allow anyone to see
what had actually happened here
Speaker:and how there was one fall guy
Speaker:and everyone pointed the
finger to that person.
Speaker:And you know, when you realize how often
Speaker:that was happening throughout the country
Speaker:and other states, then, you know,
Speaker:but until you know, you don't know.
Speaker:And I think that's been one
of the biggest aha moments.
Speaker:Although Bob's early work
focused on death penalty,
Speaker:you know, I knew that
this was so much bigger
Speaker:and we had to have funding streams
Speaker:and ways to support this
issue at every stage
Speaker:of the criminal just justice process
Speaker:that we couldn't just
look at one piece of this.
Speaker:And that is really a big reason why,
Speaker:why we needed a national
center to focus on it.
Speaker:- That's terrific.
Speaker:Now, last fall in your blog, I noticed
Speaker:that you said the Pathways
program is taking a fresh look at
Speaker:its practices with disability, kind of
Speaker:with a disability justice lens.
Speaker:What prompted this?
Speaker:- Well, the, the need to
focus on the intersection
Speaker:of disability and race or disability
Speaker:and the L-G-B-T-Q community
that has been part
Speaker:of the center for many years.
Speaker:It was back in 2017
that we hosted a webinar
Speaker:to raise awareness of the
systemic issues within systems
Speaker:that are dramatically
impacting people of color
Speaker:or those who identify as L-G-B-T-Q,
Speaker:who also have disabilities.
Speaker:And in that we were able
Speaker:to look at the different intersections
Speaker:that play into discrimination
Speaker:and violence towards people
with IDD in the system.
Speaker:And we wanted to look at
in any innovative programs
Speaker:that were focusing on solutions.
Speaker:So that was
Speaker:before actually the George Floyd
Speaker:killing had taken place at
the hands of law enforcement.
Speaker:And then, so once that
came, we were thinking,
Speaker:how do we ensure that
people with disabilities are
Speaker:leading the conversation on these issues?
Speaker:And then Covid happened
Speaker:and it's been kind of a kind
of another different journey
Speaker:to figure out how to make
sure that this is key
Speaker:to everything that we're
doing here at the center.
Speaker:So we're also looking at not
only bringing this key piece
Speaker:into our Pathways to Justice
training, which we've had
Speaker:for a number of years now,
Speaker:but also how that can
be in other trainings
Speaker:that we're a part of.
Speaker:And that has been a little
challenging, I will say.
Speaker:- Like what?
- Well, there's a training called crit,
Speaker:which is Crisis Response
Intervention Training.
Speaker:And that has been a wonderful
opportunity working with
Speaker:the Bureau of Justice Assistance funding
Speaker:to take what's traditional CIT training,
Speaker:which is crisis intervention
training, and take that
Speaker:and really ensure
Speaker:that we have more information
on IDD throughout typical
Speaker:police training will include
more focus on mental health
Speaker:or sometimes they may include autism,
Speaker:but they're not looking
more comprehensively at IDD.
Speaker:And so this was an opportunity to do that.
Speaker:However, we weren't really able
Speaker:to bring in thinking about
other identities of people
Speaker:with IDD into that conversation.
Speaker:So now we have this opportunity
through the Cops office,
Speaker:which is also a part of
the Department of Justice
Speaker:to do an online training
called Just Policing.
Speaker:And so we're taking disinformation
around intersectionality
Speaker:as well as justice involved youth
Speaker:because there are a lot of
issues around juvenile justice
Speaker:and disability and bringing
Speaker:that into both our
pathways training as well
Speaker:as the just policing, so that
Speaker:that just policing will be happening over
Speaker:the next two years.
Speaker:- And so who typically
the training is for whom
Speaker:- Law enforcement?
Speaker:That is the focus of the training.
Speaker:Now the, that is for the Just Policing
Speaker:because that will actually
live on the COPS Office portal.
Speaker:But for the Pathways training,
Speaker:it is more comprehensive than that.
Speaker:The Pathways includes
not only law enforcement,
Speaker:but also legal professionals.
Speaker:So it could be attorneys,
both sides, both, you know,
Speaker:prosecution as well as defense,
Speaker:and then also victim advocates.
Speaker:So we're wanting to bring
in all the key players
Speaker:that could potentially interact
Speaker:with either a suspect defendant victim,
Speaker:also someone who's incarcerated so
Speaker:that we're addressing this
holistically, not just saying,
Speaker:if we just come in and do a
training, we can check that box
Speaker:that you got that training.
Speaker:We know for a fact
Speaker:that training alone is
never going to work.
Speaker:There has to be a more
comprehensive kind of world around
Speaker:that training that we're building.
Speaker:And that includes creating
a disability response team.
Speaker:And that team is made up of a
local law enforcement officer,
Speaker:a victim advocate, an attorney,
a person with a disability,
Speaker:a disability advocate at minimum.
Speaker:Typically these teams are 15 to 20 people
Speaker:and it could, it could include probation
Speaker:and parole, someone from the
correction corrections as well.
Speaker:So it can be as broad as
the community wants it,
Speaker:but it's really a way to say, look,
Speaker:we're gonna get in front of this issue.
Speaker:We choose to be proactive.
Speaker:We're not waiting for
that crisis to happen.
Speaker:We're going to have a plan
before these crises happen.
Speaker:And you know, when we
do this police training,
Speaker:we'll often hear from law
enforcement, okay, we hear you.
Speaker:We agree that,
Speaker:that we need training on this issue.
Speaker:We agree that we could
respond differently, but,
Speaker:but where do people go?
Speaker:What if they do need help
right here in this moment?
Speaker:Who do we call for that?
Speaker:And the reality has been there is a lack
Speaker:of services in our communities
Speaker:and you can't sugarcoat that one.
Speaker:I mean, if we don't have places for people
Speaker:to get support, then where do they go?
Speaker:See, they end up going
cycling back into the
Speaker:criminal justice system.
Speaker:- So how are you gonna get
involved then in helping to,
Speaker:to build all of that?
Speaker:That sounds like a, a pretty big job in a
Speaker:lot of communities.
Speaker:- And that is the point of
the disability response team.
Speaker:And so in some of the states,
Speaker:we've already seen folks pass
legislation, for example,
Speaker:to try to really raise
awareness around key issues
Speaker:that are impacting their community.
Speaker:We have a, a team in Virginia
Speaker:where they got real involved in needing
Speaker:to pass legislation around
sex ed so that people
Speaker:with disabilities could
have access to that
Speaker:and know what is safe, what is not safe.
Speaker:We get many, many calls of people
Speaker:with IDD ending up on the sex offender
Speaker:registry, for example.
Speaker:And so it's key issues like that,
Speaker:that different communities
are gonna wanna focus on.
Speaker:And that team of people can
work together when you're alone
Speaker:trying to address this, it's way too hard,
Speaker:it's way too too overwhelming, honestly.
Speaker:And no community can do that.
Speaker:But when you start building
those relationships
Speaker:with people in your own community and,
Speaker:and you start seeing, you know,
that officer did care about
Speaker:that piece, you know,
that officer has a child
Speaker:with disabilities.
Speaker:And that judge really
understood that piece of it.
Speaker:And then it starts its own synergy
Speaker:because there are people that
really do wanna change things,
Speaker:but they just don't know how
Speaker:and they're not connected. Now,
Speaker:- The ARC has also been working
with individual families
Speaker:to promote awareness about people
Speaker:with IDD in the justice system.
Speaker:I know you've been working with a, a few,
Speaker:well, quite a few families.
Speaker:Can you, can you tell a couple
of those stories of, of some
Speaker:of the work you've done with individuals?
Speaker:- Sure. And, and I believe
this is the most important part
Speaker:that, of the work that this center does.
Speaker:So I appreciate the question.
Speaker:There's one family in
particular that reached out
Speaker:to us a few years ago
regarding their son who died
Speaker:actually while they were with him
Speaker:at the hands of law enforcement.
Speaker:And I remember working on their case
Speaker:and just how emotional it was
Speaker:and how difficult it was to see
this family go through this.
Speaker:And it was just recently
Speaker:before our last national
convention in New Orleans back in
Speaker:November that they reached back out to me
Speaker:because their lawsuit had been settled
Speaker:and they were now able to speak about it.
Speaker:And so they asked if I
would meet with them,
Speaker:and I of course said yes.
Speaker:And I was emotionally
preparing myself for this time
Speaker:to meet with them in person.
Speaker:'cause I knew it was
gonna be really difficult.
Speaker:But they, they never dreamed
Speaker:that they would lose
their 16-year-old son.
Speaker:And this is their only
son, Eric, who has autism,
Speaker:the tragic way that they
did just four years ago.
Speaker:And they were doing a typical act activity
Speaker:where they were out together,
Speaker:he was playing laser tag at
a place in their community.
Speaker:And then when they were
going to leave their son,
Speaker:Eric just kind of started
having, you know, behaviors
Speaker:where he was not comfortable,
he was feeling unsure
Speaker:of, of where he was.
Speaker:And he just started showing
these behaviors that kind
Speaker:of concerned them.
Speaker:So, so police were called to the scene
Speaker:and ended up though
Speaker:that he was basically put in a choke hold.
Speaker:And during this time, the whole
time the parents are there,
Speaker:you know, seeing this happen, ended up
Speaker:that he actually died right there.
Speaker:And what was really
hard for this family is
Speaker:that it wasn't maybe
three, two to three months
Speaker:before this, that they had a situation
Speaker:where they called police and it was great
Speaker:and the officer did great
and there was no problem.
Speaker:The officer knew how to deescalate
Speaker:and there was no, no problem at all.
Speaker:So you can imagine now they're
here, you know, fast forward
Speaker:and they're in this situation thinking
Speaker:that the same thing would happen.
Speaker:And so what that really alerts us to
Speaker:and what we've been
talking about together is
Speaker:that there just isn't that
consistency and response.
Speaker:And that's why the training is important,
Speaker:but that's not the only
thing that's important.
Speaker:We have to think about
much more than that.
Speaker:But training is one of those things
Speaker:that can help officers understand
what exactly can go wrong
Speaker:and just how wrong it can go.
Speaker:And I'm talking about
in minutes, you know,
Speaker:this happened very quickly
Speaker:and so we're doing everything
we can to support this family.
Speaker:'cause now they have their own
healing, they are traumatized
Speaker:by, and they don't want
Eric to ever be forgotten.
Speaker:And we're looking for ways to make sure
Speaker:that his story is told, that, you know,
Speaker:that this family really
wants folks to understand
Speaker:that his life mattered
Speaker:and that his life continues to matter.
Speaker:- Now, after George Floyd,
a number of communities
Speaker:around the country have started
Speaker:thinking about alternative
policing methods,
Speaker:it's a much more common
conversation today.
Speaker:How, how are those efforts going?
Speaker:Are are, is the, are
Speaker:are different organizations
being brought into some
Speaker:of those community conversations
and and how's that going?
Speaker:- Yeah, we've seen that happening
Speaker:with some chapters throughout the country.
Speaker:And one of, I'm glad you raised that
Speaker:because one of the things
Speaker:that we had focused on
is the new 9 8 8 number.
Speaker:So that number is there to direct,
Speaker:make a different direction
rather than going to officers
Speaker:that someone else is
responding to that crisis.
Speaker:Not a law enforcement
response if it is not needed.
Speaker:And that is one avenue that
we're trying to look to
Speaker:throughout the country to
see where is IDDA part of
Speaker:that conversation.
Speaker:If it's not, why not?
Speaker:Because mostly it's not been,
Speaker:that number was more focused
on calls around suicide,
Speaker:but it also talks about
crisis, crisis response.
Speaker:And we know that this happens
for people with IDD as well.
Speaker:So the reason I raised 9 88 is
Speaker:because when we think
about different responses,
Speaker:community-based responses versus policing,
Speaker:peer-based responses, that's key.
Speaker:I think peer-based is really important.
Speaker:- What, what do you mean by that
Speaker:and what, how does that turn up?
Speaker:- So basically, you know,
someone who's experienced this
Speaker:before, someone who
wants to provide support,
Speaker:say through a crisis,
Speaker:if someone's providing crisis
response, how are peers,
Speaker:people who have experienced
this, maybe people
Speaker:with lived experience,
you would hear that term,
Speaker:or people with disabilities
are a part of that process
Speaker:and able to, to really
Speaker:not just hear this from the
professional side of you,
Speaker:but they're hearing it from a
person who's lived through it
Speaker:and can really identify with
someone that's just like them.
Speaker:And we've seen this happening, you know,
Speaker:more in the mental health field, samhsa,
Speaker:the Substance abuse Mental
Health Services administration
Speaker:has been supporting peer led
activities for many years,
Speaker:peer led training, et cetera.
Speaker:But we're really wanting
to open that up more
Speaker:to the IDD field
Speaker:and see how we can create
funding to pay people
Speaker:for their experience, their expertise,
Speaker:and their knowledge around this.
Speaker:So you can imagine what
that could look like
Speaker:and how that could really
change the conversation hearing
Speaker:from people with disabilities in all
Speaker:of these different areas.
Speaker:- So is that already happening
Speaker:or is that something you're working on?
Speaker:- We're working on. Okay. I
like to, I like to plant seeds.
Speaker:It may not exactly be happening.
Speaker:I mean it's happening in some ways outside
Speaker:of the criminal justice system.
Speaker:Of course, for example,
if someone is a victim
Speaker:of a crime and they are needing supports
Speaker:or services, you could have
someone like a navigator
Speaker:come alongside.
Speaker:So we see some of that happening,
Speaker:but not enough, not to the
extent that it could be.
Speaker:And again, that's another
way of using funding,
Speaker:a kind of pulling it away from
Speaker:looking at a criminal justice
law enforcement response only
Speaker:and saying, well, if we
put some money over here
Speaker:to really support peers
to make these connections,
Speaker:to provide support, that could
really be a game changer.
Speaker:We don't know until we try
Speaker:and we start putting some
evaluation and research behind it
Speaker:and really, really know
what strategies work best.
Speaker:- Oh, that sounds like a great idea.
Speaker:Any other updates to
N-C-C-J-D or Pathways?
Speaker:Anything we haven't talked about
Speaker:that you wanted to touch on?
Speaker:- Well, I, I think I
mentioned a little bit,
Speaker:but we did recently celebrate
a 10 year anniversary at the
Speaker:Arks National Convention in
New Orleans back in November,
Speaker:which was so exciting.
Speaker:And we will continue to do that
throughout this coming year,
Speaker:just really trying to raise
awareness of these issues
Speaker:to the level that we can
gain the amount of funding
Speaker:and support needed to continue
to do the work of the center.
Speaker:So I would really encourage
anyone who's listening
Speaker:to contact us if they want to
support this work in any way,
Speaker:whether it's sharing or story.
Speaker:Also, we have a national information
Speaker:and referral line, so we will help people
Speaker:with disabilities calling
in attorneys, police, anyone
Speaker:who wants to ask questions, get training,
Speaker:we're here for that as well.
Speaker:- And, and how we, how do I access that?
Speaker:Is that a phone number? Is it a website?
Speaker:- Yes, we do have a website.
Speaker:If you go onto the arcs website, which is
Speaker:the arc.org,
Speaker:you can look up criminal
justice initiatives under there
Speaker:and that will take you
straight to our, our homepage.
Speaker:- Terrific. Oh, lean,
it's just been wonderful
Speaker:to have this conversation with you.
Speaker:I'm, it, it's really great to
kind of see the progress and,
Speaker:and I know it can be frustratingly slow,
Speaker:but it does, it does seem that
things are starting to boot
Speaker:to become a little more accessible
Speaker:to people, a little, a
little more within reach.
Speaker:As you, as you sit here today
Speaker:and you think about, you know, years
Speaker:after George Floyd, the
funding that is starting
Speaker:to trickle in for some of
these different initiatives.
Speaker:Do you, do you feel like
we're on the cusp of some big,
Speaker:some big changes
Speaker:or are the numbers still
kind of stacked against us?
Speaker:- Oh wow. What a question.
Speaker:You know, that is hard to say
Speaker:because you do see
different, like legislation,
Speaker:possible legislation that could, you know,
Speaker:tip the bull into our favor, 9, 8, 8.
Speaker:Could that be a path
to really draw funding
Speaker:to focus on this issue in
a very different way so
Speaker:that we can build capacity in communities
Speaker:and not just focus on
law enforcement response
Speaker:- Within legislation?
Speaker:What would, what would
you say would be the,
Speaker:the critical piece that,
Speaker:that would really make a
difference, do you think?
Speaker:- Well, I mean, if we could get 9, 8, 8
Speaker:to really support people with ID D two
Speaker:and it'd be more comprehensive, I think
Speaker:that would be a good start.
Speaker:But also really fully funding
Speaker:and supporting any kind of
crisis intervention programs.
Speaker:How are we not addressing the deeper needs
Speaker:and the root causes of people's
trauma of why there are,
Speaker:where they are in life?
Speaker:How does disability play into that?
Speaker:How does race play into that?
Speaker:What about where they live,
Speaker:the socioeconomics of where they're at?
Speaker:I mean, we, we tend to
wanna focus on one answer
Speaker:and it's really much more
complicated than that.
Speaker:If we could look at different
pieces of legislation
Speaker:and all of the disability
community come together in looking
Speaker:at that along with the law
enforcement, the different kind
Speaker:of disability advocates
Speaker:and victim advocates,
Speaker:I think we would have a
better chance overall.
Speaker:- I think you've really
just described disability,
Speaker:disability justice as a whole,
Speaker:and that's what our
issue has been all about.
Speaker:- Reminds me of the term
inclusive justice, which is one
Speaker:that we had brought out in
some of our international work
Speaker:as we've looked at what
are other countries
Speaker:doing in this space.
Speaker:You know, some are much
farther ahead than us
Speaker:or doing things much better
than us at least trying
Speaker:to address, you know,
these issues. And how
Speaker:- Are we different?
Speaker:- Well, we are part of the Access
Speaker:to Justice international hub,
Speaker:and that has been going on for
about six to seven years now
Speaker:and have traveled to the
UK to have meetings there.
Speaker:The center's also been in Austria
Speaker:and most recently last year, South Korea,
Speaker:who they were looking at wanting
Speaker:to create a national
center on criminal justice
Speaker:and disability, like what
we have here in the us.
Speaker:And so different places,
different places are really
Speaker:on the continuum, right, of
being just talking about it
Speaker:to really being more
advanced than where we are.
Speaker:And examples of that would be in the UK
Speaker:where they have what's
called intermediaries
Speaker:that will actually be
part of the court system
Speaker:who can go into the court system
Speaker:and provide more communication support.
Speaker:So they're not really there as advocates,
Speaker:but more as anyone who needs
support with communication.
Speaker:Obviously that helps in
the advocacy world, right?
Speaker:Because now they're being
heard, seen someone standing up
Speaker:for them to make sure that they're,
Speaker:that they have the
communication needs met.
Speaker:There's, you know, the question of
Speaker:what is actually doable
here in, in our country.
Speaker:But there's also things like in Israel
Speaker:where there's been some really good effort
Speaker:to train police officers
Speaker:and that that has seemed to really help
Speaker:and officers have been open
to learning about disability.
Speaker:So di different things are going on
Speaker:and I think it's important
that we build solidarity
Speaker:around these, this issue internationally
Speaker:because it can help us to
understand where we are
Speaker:in the story.
Speaker:It helps us to understand
Speaker:where we are on the map when
it comes to, to these issues
Speaker:and we can really learn from each other.
Speaker:- Terrific. Oh, Leanne,
it's just been wonderful
Speaker:to have this conversation with you.
Speaker:Thank you so much. All
Speaker:- Right, thank you Janet. I appreciate
Speaker:- It.
Speaker:So great. Bye-Bye bye.
Speaker:Thanks for joining the conversation.
Speaker:If you'd like to reproduce all
Speaker:or part of this podcast,
Speaker:please email ici PUB at.edu.
Speaker:- Our show is Co-produced
at the University
Speaker:of Minnesota's Institute
on community integration
Speaker:by impact managing editor Janet Stewart
Speaker:and ICI, media producer Pete McCaulay.
Speaker:Skyler Mahi Love is our editor.
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Burkhart and Sarah Curtner.
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